45 Caliber Muzzleloaders ?

Answers 
to
Your 
Questions

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Re: MAX Muzzleloader Blog- MAX Rifle-Specific Load Data Books
Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 11:59:49 -0400
To: MAX Muzzleloader rlynch@maxmuzzleloader.com

You're a good writer, Russel. I have a MFA (Masters of Fine Arts) degree from Columbia in Fiction Writing. So I know good writing. All your stuff is very well written.

I have recently bought a CVA Accura in .45 caliber. I know you aren't crazy about .45 caliber muzzy rifles because you say the selection of bullets is poor. But you've admitted to me they are superior ballistically (somewhat). Flatter shooting. I bought a .45 owing to what Chad and the other guy in that CVA video "Blackpowder 101' said. Also, several guys from the gun stores here in Fort Wayne, Indiana prefer the .45 muzzy (for deer) due to it's flatter trajectory.

Now, Russel, IF you are the leading expert regarding cutting edge accuracy in modern muzzleloading rifles, then, I'm sorry, you HAVE to test at leeast ONE rifle in .45. You actually don't even have a choice IF you are what you say you are: the leading expert. I know a half dozen people (along with CVA Chad and the other CVA guy) who prefer the .45. Russel, .45s are a part of the modern muzzleloading rifle scene. If you don't include us .45 users, then you are not the overall leading expert in muzzy rifle technology. If you can't include SOME loads for, say the CVA Accura (my gun), or SOME .45 cal muzzy rifle, than you are a liar.

I really need, and would greatly appreciate, some top loads in the ,45 cal for my CVA Accura. You ALREADY spend hours and hours testing loads for multiple rifles. You wouldn't even notice a couple more three to five shots groups for a .45 cal CVA Accura at the end of each shooting day. Why can't you BE a full and complete EXPERT in ALL the calibers available today? If you ARE an expert, you HAVE to work up a few loads in .45 caliber. There is a definate group of muzzy rifle hunters--like myself--who are waiting for you to do what you say you do. We're out there. And we need your loads.

PLEASE include loads for OUR guns, so that you CAN be the expert you claim to be.

Russell, I am not in the least trying to piss you off, but I could really use your help. So there are not a great variety of bullets out there in .45 cal. There are SOME good bullets out there in .45, like the Precison bullets DEAD CENTER 200 and 220 grain bullets (which are the bullets I plan to use). Why can't you be the expert you say you are and help out us .45 cal guys? Chad and the other CVA can't be wrong about the .45, can they"

If you don't beleive me about the CVA guys--for deer sized game--preffering the .45, then watch the "Blackpowder 101" video.

Russell, you impress the Hell out of me for what you're doing, except that you, right now, are NOT the expert you claim you are. It won't affect your day much at all to include a couple of extra groups for the .45. Please become what you say you already are. Please give me some good load data for my .45). 

Thank you for your work and your time.

Fort Wayne, IN  

This is an email I received about the new Rifle Specific M.A.X. Load Data Books. First of all, I see that his degree is in fiction writing, and I sure hope everyone knows that anything I have to say is pure NON-FICTION. 

Now that we have that cleared up, you can see that this person wants some data on the .45 caliber muzzleloader. I do believe the .45 will make somewhat of a comeback, but not to the extent that even the most dedicated marketing campaign by any manufacture will have everyone selling their .50 cal’s to get one.


The guys in the video he mentioned, Chad Schearer of Shoot Straight with Chad Schearer and O’Neil Williams of O'Neil Outside, are both accomplished hunters to say the least. But remember, they both work for CVA and they say what they need to say to sell what they're paid to sell. But If anyone purchases a .45 because of the video, then Chad & O'Neil have done their job.


I really don’t know but a few people who are using a .45, but I’m sure there are quite a few of you out there. The new inline .45's lost a lot of fans some years ago when the manufactures had the twist rate of the rifling screwed up and they just would not hold a group.  Unfortunately for them, that has carried over to today somewhat.

Another big problem for the 45’s in today’s market is that the 50’s own the market which = shelf-space in the stores. So, there are very few accessories available over-the counter, to include bullets.


There are some good bullets available for the .45, the best probably being made by Mr. Cecile Epps at Precision Bullets. I really must say I don’t remember saying that the 45 was ballistic superior to the 50’s, so I’m glad the word “somewhat” was used. Without getting into a big explanation, just remember, smaller, lighter and faster doesn't mean better. A good example to look at would be in the centerfire world and that being the age-old comparison of the .270 and the 30/06. For the first 200 yards the 270 is flatter and faster, after that +/- a few, the 30/06 is the clear winner. I know it’s not the same thing, but it’s the same principle.


It’s not that I’m not a fan of the 45 ML, I just don’t have any time behind the butt of one nor the interest from my customers for the information. If I get time to play in the future, it maybe with a 45, but I’m having a lot of fun with the 50's and will be for a while. I’ve got three new 50 cal rifle videos due out before year’s end and 4 data book’s for 50’s.


I must say however, I really appreciate the kind words about me and MAX. I loved getting called out and I love a good challenge. But as I get older, I’ve learned not only to pick my battles, but when to fight them. He went a little too far with some of this, but mostly with the liar part, that did pi.. me off a little to start with, but I’m over it.


45 data is something I need to get to and will, when it’s time and I have time. I’m not putting the 45 down and I’m certainly not putting anyone down for buying and choosing one for their deer rifle, I just don’t know anything much about the new ones. Heck, call Chad or O’Neil.


For now I’m going to stick with something I learned in the Marine Corps and Law Enforcement, that being “the needs of the many over the needs of the few”. So for now, it's back to the range with my 50's.

MAX Q & A: the CVA Breech Plug Ignition Problem

MAX Q&A:

your questions from email and facebook

From Facebook:

"I am headed to Alaska in May for Bear with my Accura and have had issues with CCI 209 primers firing and Blackhorn not, so I have read to try CCI 209mag and 50% work. I was hunting 4weeks ago MT late season in 20degree temp I fired first shot with a perfect kill, second missed a neck shot, third primer only went off, fourth I re-packed bullet/powder fired with delay I flinched and hit the deer in the head. All bullets and powder where seated proper can't figure it out. My intended load is a 250gr TMZ w/100vlm of Blackhorn changing to Winchester blue 209's for Alaska. I have checked the breech plug for blockage and cleaned. I know the Blackhorn is not the problem I suspect its the breech. Any suggestion Russell? Thanks Wil"

"Wil: 2 issues, one you can control & the other you can't. The breach plug, depending on how you clean it, can have more blockage than you think that can affect ignition. If you're not using the proper scraping tools (which no one makes) looking though the breach plug can be deceiving. The one you don't have control over is a lot of V2's have problems igniting Blackhorn 209. I do notice that you recognize the problem is not with BH209 as I too believe it is a great product, and it is. Many are experiencing this problem with V2's. I believe it is being addressed but I don't think you'll have a solution before your bear hunt in May. If you want more, email me as the big answer won't really fit here."

I gave Wil the "short answer" quickly on Facebook, but wanted to make sure to share it with you all in a longer version here. We get a lot of questions like this one; it's got a common theme so I'd like to make an additional comment on the subject of the large number of CVA Accura V2 and CVA Apex rifles failing to fire using Blackhorn 209 Powder.

I'm kinda caught in the middle here as I know the CEO's and staff of both companies pretty well. But MAX is based on me telling the truth and being honest with my customers, regardless of what that truth is. So, I've got to warn or caution you all about using Blackhorn in either of these CVA rifles, or in any Encore that is utilizing a Bergara Barrel with the QRBP. There is a pretty good chance that the rifle will not fire or will hang fire with Blackhorn powder. I've studied this problem for the better part of 6 months and I see the problem being with CVA QRBP (Quick Release Breech Plug) and not with Blackhorn 209 Powder. It's a very simple problem to fix. I have seen these breech plugs from the inside, using medical-grade orthopedic scopes and I've seen them cut in half....... The fix is simple.

 I'm quite certain any of you having this problem will be able to shoot Blackhorn with 100% confidence before next season, just be patient. In the meantime, those with any of these CVA products having hang-fire problems, you need to change powders for now. Triple 7 is what I would recommend.

....OK, so continuing with Facebook and the comments there, shortly after posting the "short answer" for Wil (and the day before I was about to post the above blog post), one of our Facebook friends posted his personal answer to the CVA breech plug problem. In his comment, he said that CVA was working with Western Powders (owners of Blackhorn) to come up with a new breech plug that would fix CVA's ignition problem.

"Thats pretty interesting as i heard Western Powders and CVA were working on a new plug design. I wont mention any names but thats very interesting. I've been running a 5/32" flash channel and .035" flash hole on my QRBP for well over 2,000 ...shots with no issues what so ever. CVA as well as everyone else on the market just were not prepared for Blackhorn 209."

Hmmmmm.

I believe that being in this industry to hopefully make a living at it someday holds me to a somewhat higher standard than the average person out there commenting and giving opinions. Meaning, when I say something, it HAS to be right, my business depends on my giving only good, solid information. If I always tell the truth, people can always trust my word. So when I saw the comment above, I spent a few days on the phone, to verify what I thought was correct as opposed to what had been said on Facebook.

To begin with, I want to say that both the Accura V2 and the Apex rifles are very capable and very accurate. But there is a very good chance you will have ignition problems with either rifle using Blackhorn 209 due to the design of their new QRBP (Quick Release Breech Plug). It's a shame that CVA made this kind of advancement with their rifles, only to fall short with a very poor breech plug design.

So, here's the REAL DEAL about what has happened:

Back in the early fall of last year, I flew to Miles City, Montana to the Blackhorn Plant (see my Oct 3, 2010 blog post). The folks there are great and it was a very productive trip.

One of the big topics for the three day trip was the CVA ignition problems that people were experiencing with the new QRBP rifles. Both Blackhorn and MAX were receiving calls & emails regarding the hang-fires. Before I left Montana, all involved had agreed as to what the problem was with the new QRBP and what it would take to fix it. The problem and the fix were fairly simple.

During my last round-table meeting with Western Powder CEO, Doug Phair and his staff, it was decided that the best thing to do was to invite BPI CEO Dudley McGarity or someone from his staff to Blackhorn’s extensive testing facility to address the problem as a group of industry professionals working together for the benefit of all parties, to include their customers.

At this point, Blackhorn had extended invitations to CVA on several occasions to no avail. I assured Blackhorn (and was pretty darn confident) that my relationship with CVA was strong enough to have some influence over making this meeting happen.

After my return home, I started talking with CVA about the possibility of one of their staff (hopefully Mark Hendrix, CVA’s Gun Smith / Gun Shop Manager) going with me to Miles City for a visit.....

Well, I was just lead along for several months and then got a half-hearted commitment for someone to go with me to MT, but just a few weeks before the set travel date, I was basically told that CVA had more important things to do. (???) The kicker here is that I (MAX ) had offered to pay for the entire trip!

Why would MAX do that, you ask? Because MAX, CVA and Blackhorn were all getting hundreds of emails / phone calls about the ignition problem. CVA was blaming all problems on Blackhorn's powder instead of on the new design of their breech plug and MAX had just put out it's new MAXimize Your CVA Accura & Accura V2 which now appeared to have false information concerning Blackhorn or the abilities of the Accura V2. MAX and Blackhorn’s reputations were on the line, and they were apparently the only two that had any concern about trying to address the issue for the customers; they were the only two spending any time or money to try to fix the problem. CVA just left us both hanging.

From early Fall 2010 until the end of the 2010 season, the problem got worse, and here's why: it went from a failure to fire (or hang-fire) on the range to failure to fire on the buck or bull of a lifetime (whether it was someone's first chance at a big game animal or a shot at a true trophy!)!!  I just couldn’t bare that, “accuracy and big game performance” being MAX’s mission!!

I had several meetings / phone calls / emails with CVA, but they just continued to blame Blackhorn; they took no responsibility for the problem at all and seemed uninterested at any attempt to correct it.

OK, so why do I believe it's a design problem? Because with PROPER maintenance, no other muzzleloader manufacturer's rifles are experiencing this problem. No amount of maintenance or cleaning will fix the problems with the CVA QRBP. I don't just believe that, I know it.

During the winter, the CEO of Western Powders, Doug Phair, and his staff designed and built, at their own expense, a new breech plug that will make any CVA rifle as reliable as any other rifle on the market.  At the 2011 Shot Show in Vegas, Doug intended to give this breech plug to CVA. And I don't just mean a single prototype, I mean the drawings, rights, everything! When Doug delivered it to the CVA booth, he was met (again) with the attitude that CVA did not have a problem by their National Sales Manager, Terry Eby.

Sheesh.

I want everyone to know two things:

1. Both MAX and Blackhorn worked harder to correct this problem than the actual owner of the problem.

2.. Blackhorn is a product that has taken muzzleloading to the next level.


The staff at Blackhorn are professionals who have been in the explosive and gun powder business a very long time, since the late 1960's. The company has a state-of-the-art ballistics lab and the education and intelligence to operate it.

If any of you have called CVA with this problem, you were probably told to use IMR White Hots. My stance is: as muzzleloaders, we should be able to use any substitute we want. If CVA knew their rifles couldn't handle Blackhorn, they should have let us know in their advertising, put a disclaimer on the box or something. That would have given us a chance to choose to buy the rifle or not, based on what the rifle was or was not capable of. OR….. did they just not know? Then that would seem to say that they didn't test the new QRBP before putting it on the market....neither alternative being very good business and certainly not fair to their customers.

To our facebook friend: CVA HAS NOT worked with Blackhorn on a new breech plug design….oh…uh…well, a CVA technician did call Blackhorn March 2nd, wanting to work on a new breech plug AFTER this stuff all posted on MAX's facebook page.... coincidence? Who knows. But I can tell you: Blackhorn technicians designed and built a breech plug that fixes the issues, personally delivered it to the head CVA folks, and got their hand bit off.

As far as the comment about the industry not seeing Blackhorn coming…I’m not so sure that's quite accurate either. Blackhorn left no rock un-turned. I've been in their gun-vault (again, see my post on Oct 3, 2010); I've seen the extensive inventory of rifles that the powder was tested in during the pre-market release.

My very next post will show you how to properly maintain and clean a breech plug to insure proper ignition, no matter what powder you use. All of today's new QRBP's are longer and have created a new cleaning / maintenance problem that is EASY to deal with, with the right knowledge and tools. I will also talk about what the design problem is with the CVA plug.

I have to say that it was a relief for the comment to show up on facebook and for all this to get out in the light to you guys. It's been hard information to hold, sticky situations trying to talk CVA into looking at the solution Blackhorn had come up with, wondering when and if CVA was ever going to do anything....well now the cat-is-out-of-the-bag, thanks to the comment from our friend on facebook that got this ball rolling!

As for the MAX load data using Blackhorn: it is great data if your Accura or Apex has no ignition problems (and not all of them do). I own three Accuras and have not had the first problem with any of them, ever. So not all of them have this problem, which is really another issue that CVA needs to look into...

 

TC Omega DVD: MAX Q&A

MAX Q&A: your questions from email and facebook


There are some good questions out there.

Some are from folks who are new to muzzleloading and some are from guys who've been doing this a while, but sharing information is what I'm all about, so I'm posting the questions I get, along with my answers.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Question for You

Hi,

I own a T/C Omega Z5 (and 2 jars of Blackhorn 209) and I see that you have 2 DVDs out. Do your 2 DVDs have different info in them (other than featuring different rifles), would I be missing out on some information if I bought the "Maximize Your Muzzleloader #2: Precision Fire Inlines" but not your first DVD? I'm new to muzzleloaders but not center fire rifles, bows and handguns.

Thanks!

Larry

Subject: RE: Question for You

Larry,

It does sound like my second video, PFI would be more what you are looking for.

DVD #1, "Maximize Your Muzzleloader for Pin Point Accuracy" is an excellent choice to learn techniques for cleaning, both at the bench and my storage regiment, along with loading for accuracy. It also includes plenty of marksmanship information. This video will work for both beginners and shooters who’ve been around awhile as it is full of great tips and techniques I have picked up over my extensive shooting career. I believe this to be the most comprehensive and informative video EVER produced on how to accurize, load and clean any modern in-line muzzleloader. Although the video was shot using a Thompson Center Encore, anyone can use these tips and techniques on any brand of muzzleloader.

DVD #2, “Precision Fire Inlines” also covers accuracy, cleaning and marksmanship. But it goes much deeper into the specific components of a load. Some of the highlights include:

* Ballistic gel penetration & expansion and accuracy tests on some of the best bullets in the world.

* The most complete primer / ignition test ever put on video, this alone will explain why groups are not as tight as they should be.

* Proper cleaning and loading for maximum accuracy.

* All data and results accomplished with a factory, off-the-shelf TC Omega Rifle.

* 8 complete loads that will get anyone started on the path to better accuracy.

* Proper scope mounting, bore sighting and marksmanship tips in the Special Features Section.

Both videos are over 2 hours long and full of great info and insights! I hope this information helps and appreciate the opportunity to be part of your muzzleloader experience!

- Russell

If you've got any good questions, email me at sales@maxmuzzleloader.com or send them to me by posting on the wall of the MAX Facebook page. I'll keep everyone's last name out of it, but if you include what state you are in I'll add that info.

Powder Ignition & Breech Plug Maintenance: MAX Q&A

MAX QandA:  your questions from email and facebook

There are some good questions out there.

Some are from folks who are new to muzzleloading and some are from guys who've been doing this a while, but sharing information is what I'm all about, so I'm posting the questions I get, along with my answers.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Accura Video!

Russell
Purchased your video and learned more in a couple of hours than I knew before. Purchased my first muzzle loader a year ago. Have been using Triple 7 pellets and Hornady bullets. Never considered using Triple 7 powder because as I didn't want to mess with the measuring, etc. Purchased Blackhorn 209 and the Winchester Blue Box Shotgun 209 Primers. Went to the range and the primers wouldn't ignite the powder. The primers were probably old as I borrowed them until my new ones get here. Soak my breach plug in CVA parts solvent and use a brush to clean the holes. Could it be possible that the primers are old and lost their power. Did dry fire a couple to make sure they were firing. Any ideas?

Where do you get the caps for your BlackHorn or is that one that came off a 777 bottle.

Thanks Randy

 
Subject: Re: Accura Video! 
Randy,


Sorry it took me a few day's to get back to you, It's been getting hard to stay caught up. Fresh primers will help, but what will help more, is to make sure that the breech plug is CLEAN. In order to get it real clean, you will need a #32 or 3mm drill bit for cleaning the long channel in front of where the primer fits, and another small bit (I don't know the size) or a welding torch hole cleaning set from a welder supply store to clean the small flash hole where the fire comes out. Soak the breech plug first and then use these tools to clean these areas, dry out with canned air. You will be surprised at how dirty these things get and how hard they are to clean without these tools. Try this and see how it works.

The cap for the powder can that I use is made by T/C Arms. They are pretty easy to find, cost less than $5.00 and will fit any muzzleloader powder can.

If new Winchester primers don't help, try the CCI 209 M, that is what Blackhorn is now recommending, and they do work.

Hope this helps and if not, email me a phone number, and we will talk on the phone.

Thanks for your business,


Russell
 
 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Accura Video!
 
Russell: Must of had some old primers as when I used CCI primers the rifle performed well. Is was very windy \but had some nice groups at 115 yards . Waiting for a calm day so I can get comfortable at 150 and 200 yards. Use the 250 Grain Hornady SST bullets. Any data you have on them would be much appreciated. Thanks again for all your help. Love my Accura. Let me know when I can purchase the data info. 

Randy

 
-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Accura Video!
Randy,

Glad everything worked out OK. Thanks for your business and for putting your trust in us. We will do a blog post when the data books are ready.


Thanks again,

Russell

 
 If you've got any good questions, email me at sales@maxmuzzleloader.com or send them to me by posting on the wall of the MAX Facebook page. I'll keep everyone's last name out of it, but if you include what state you are in I'll add that info.




 
 
 

Sabotted Bullets: Q&A from MAX

 I've been getting a lot of questions by email on a whole range of things about muzzleloading and shooting.  Sometimes it takes me a while to get all the phone calls and emails answered, but I am steadily working on getting to everyone.  I want everyone to have the best accuracy they can get, and I hope to help anyone I can achieve that.

In the meantime, there are some good questions out there.  Some are from folks who are new to muzzleloading and some are from guys who've been doing this a while, but sharing information is what I'm all about, so I'm going to start posting the questions I get, along with my answers. 

If you've got any good questions, email me at sales@maxmuzzleloader.com or send them to me by posting on the wall of the MAX facebook page.  I'll keep everyone's last name out of it, but if you include what state you are in I'll add that info.

So this came in a couple of days ago:

-------- Original Message
Subject: Sabot Bullet Question

Hi Russell
I have noticed a decrease in my T/C Encore Muzzle Loader accuracy/precision since Hornady went to the "low force" saboted 300 gr. bullets a couple years ago. I used to be able to shoot about 1" 3-shot groups at 100yds, but can no longer do so with the reduced force sabots. The groups 3-shot groups are now more like 3"-4" at 100 yards and a 5-shot group at 200 yards is about 7"-8". I have seen your video for Maximize Your Muzzleloader featuring the T/C Encore (very informational video, by the way) where you recommend the T/C Shockwave, but I have the same issue with those groups being bigger now too. Is there another saboted bullet that you would recommend? I have a few of the older, tighter fit, Hornady saboted bullets left and they still shoot the same 3-shot 1" groups at 100 yds, but I can't get them anymore so any suggestions that you have would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Todd

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Re: Sabot Bullet Question

Todd,

I really liked the old "black" sabot's myself, which are the ones I believe you are talking about. Those sabot's are still sold by TC and are known as their Mag Express sabots. I just purchased 200 (in packs of 50) from, I believe, Midsouth Shooters Supply. I use Mid South a lot, good price's, fast shipping and great service. Another good tight fitting sabot I recommend a lot is the Knight black sabot; another very good sabot and fairly easy to find.  Finally, Hornady also sells their High Pressure sabots, 50 to a pack, for about $7.00. These are black and are made to be used with .451 and .452 bullets.

I hope this helps Todd, and thanks for your kind comments on our video and for your business. Have a great season.
                                                              Russell