3 Things to Look at in Breech Plug Primer Pockets

Last in the series on breech plugs is the area where the ball starts rolling, the Primer Pocket. This little area is often over-looked but can tell us a lot about what is happening with the components of the loads we are working with.

This pocket is simply the recess in the breech plug where the primer sits. In all the breech plugs I’ve measured, there is very little variance from one manufacturer to the next. The best plan would be for the primer to fit this pocket as tight as possible. But being that we are using a primer that’s designed for something else (shotgun shells) and we’re using it for something other than that, that’s just not going to happen. As we all know, when 209 primers are put in a shotgun shell, they have a tight friction fit in the primer pocket of the shell. They are put in the shell with a press and removed by a press. In fact, at times shotgun and metallic case primers are so hard to remove that de-capping pins can break while removing them.

With all that said, the fit of the 209’s in a breech plug primer pocket is sloppy in comparison to the way it fits in a shotgun shell. It has to be in order for us to be able to get the darn things out after the rifle is fired. But this loose fit adds to a little issue we know as blow back. It was hard to write this article without getting into blow back issues too much because blow back is really its own topic, and there will be more coming on that headache later.

With the primer pocket, there were three areas I looked at:


          1) The Diameter
          2) The Depth
          3) And what the Length of the primer has to do with the head space, blow back and fire delivery.

First: the Diameter. The diameter is what it is and there wasn’t a lot of difference in that dimension between any of the manufactures. The CVA has a little looser fit than TC or the new BH209 plug.

The diameter of each is:


          CVA - .248
          TC - 245
          BH- .245


Our main concern with this dimension is how it relates to the diameter of the primers we put in in the hole. For the past few weeks I’ve started working with and testing primers much more in depth than ever before. The first thing I done was to measure all brands and types from top to bottom. I’m going to share all the information about the primers at a later time, but for now I just wanted to show you two of primer dimensions.  As it relates to the diameter of the primers, .238 was the smallest and found in 13 types all the way up to .244, the largest found only in Fiocchi 209’s.

During my primer test, removing the fired primers was not a problem, as expected, but lets wait and see what happens when I put about 100 gr. of juice in front of them later. I’m betting something is going to change with that.
 Second: The Depth.  Depth is next and in my opinion a big factor in both accuracy and making the rifle go bang. This is where we start getting into a little thing called Head Space. Now there’s going to be a few opinions out there about where head space lies on a muzzleloader, and I’m not going to say that my findings are the final answer, but I think it’s a good one and practical.

I’ve been reloading rifle ammo for 30+ years and I’m well aware of what head space is and where it’s checked on the different rifles and types of cases, but it’s a little harder to get a grasp on and control over with a muzzleloader. One reason for that is because of the difference of the length I found in the 13 different primers I’m testing. This dimention is much more critical than the diameter.  Let me show you what I’m talking about with a few measurements I’ve taken.


Primer Pocket Depth:

          CVA QRBP - .221
          BH 209 - .200
          TC Speed Breech - .200

Third:  Primer Lengths.  The longest primer measured was .302 and the shortest was .290. That’s a difference of .012 between the 13 different types, and that’s a lot when it comes to head space and how it translates to blow back to us muzzleloaders. In head space world that’s about 1.69 miles.


The way to look at it is like this; the longer the primer, the less travel space the primer has to the rear when the rifle is fired, therefore the less blow back we have and we have more fire going down the fire channel. The shorter the primer, and we can expect just the opposite.

Now the other part of head space is how close the back of the primer is to the frame or breech of the rifle. In TC’s, Bellm Custom has a set of shims that can be placed between the frame and the firing pin block. What this does is to move the firing pin block closer to the face of the primer. In CVA’s, I’ve read and been informed several times about using a larger “O Ring” behind the firing pin block. I’m sure this works because the new ring is thicker and will take up the gap between the block and the primer. One of the problems with doing this is that if you use a solvent based cleaner, the O Ring will swell and weaken and need to be replaced more often than metal shims. Just like the O Ring on the TC plug needs to be replaced when using these types of cleaners. I’m working with a company now to come up with a shim set for CVA rifles. I know that part of the purpose of the O Ring is to keep blow back out of that firing pin area, but to tell you the truth, that little ring really don’t do a great job of keeping that area clean anyway.

The problem with moving the block of either rifle closer to the primer is that if you want to try another load and use a shorter primer, you have to start all over again because the fit will be loose again. Another problem with moving this block is that you can move it to much and the rifle won’t close. The very first Pro Hunter with the new Speed Breech I put on my range had the problem of not closing with the Winchester Blue Box 209’s. That was only because those primers were longer than others. I’m sure a lot of you may have had the same problem.

Below is a list of the head space that I found from the primer to breech plug fit only, it has nothing to do with the primer to the face of the breech head space at all, but its all relevant, and  good to know.


These measurements were found by putting an un-fired primer in the primer pocket. Then I laid a 5/16 brass punch pin across the back of the breech plug and over the primer. I then used a set of feeler gages to measure the gap between the face of the primer and the back of the breech plug. 

As these measurements will show, the CVA plug has a little looser fit than the other two.

The TC has a tighter tolerance in this area and this is one of the reasons that TC’s have no problems with igniting BH209.


Out of the two dimensions I’ve talked about, the depth of the primer pocket is the most critical and there’s two things we can do that will help 1) be mindful of the primer we’re putting in it and 2) move the firing pin block.

The length of the primer at the end of the day is what makes the difference. I’ll have an entire article about primers coming soon. I’ve been surprised about what I’ve found so far and I believe you will be too. I can tell you for a fact that the fit and type of the primer we use has a lot to do with ignition and accuracy.


Out of all this Breech Plug issue and talk these are the four things that will help the new longer breech plugs ignite BH209, and all powders:


          1) The face of the breech plug having a nice dished out shape


          2) The primer fitting as tight as possible to the bottom of the breech plug primer pocket during firing.


          3) A nice transition area from the fire channel to the flash hole.
     
          4) a good quality primer (more on that soon)


Longer is not better, but it can be dealt with.


I’m not sure what’s next because I’m working so much good stuff. I’ll get one thing on my mind and then something else takes over!! If there’s something ya’ll want to know about, let me know and if I have it ready, I’ll do it and if not, I’ll look into it.

Breech Plugs: the Flash Hole & the Face of the Plug

It's been pretty hard to break the Breech Plug down into six features and talk about them each independently....

1. The Primer Pocket
2. The Fire Channel - that hole between the primer pocket and flash hole.
3. The Transition Area - the area that connects the fire channel to the flash hole.
4. The Flash Hole
5. The Face of the Breech Plug
6. QRBP: the Length - and this is what has been the driving force in causing us to have to pay more attention to the other five features.

So one GOOD feature works with the the next and so on and so on, but one bad one in the mix...refer to the bad apple story we've heard all our lives.  But the best way I found for me to understand where the problems were was to break it down and look each feature.  At the end of the day, everything is relative.

And one bad apple....

To begin:  the Flash Hole

Only two things to look at here: 
     1.  Diameter
     2.  Length

Diameter seems to be a big topic in the industry.  You'll find conversations on blogs and forums all over the internet about this small, but pertinent hole.

Most of us want to make it larger, but others are fine with it the way it is.  I'm one of those guys.  Many have found that making it larger, especially in the case of the CVA Quick Release Breech Plug, does not necessarily fix an ignition problem.  So in some cases, bigger is not better.

Flash Holes seem to run from around .026/.028 all the way (with our intervention) to .035.  Why then do some work flawlessly at .026 and others fail at .035?  For the answer, it's as simple as going back to the bad apple story.  One breakdown / flaw in the fire flow from primer to powder and the bad apples wins.

Just what should the diameter be?  From what I've seen in testing, smaller is better if it works.  Reason being is because in most cases, a larger Flash Hole opens the door for more blow-back (same as blow by, I call it blow back).  There are cases where this is not true, but there are a lot of factors that determine how much un-wanted blow-back a larger Flash Hole can cause, or not.

One manufacturer tells me they're worried about increased pressure levels on the frame at the firing pin / breech face on alloy frames from the larger holes.  If they're concerned, I am too.

The next factor with the Flash Hole is it's Length. 

In the case of the Thompson Center Speed Breech XT, that hole is .150 +/- and the CVA Quick Release Breech Plug is .138 +/-0.  Which one is optimal?  Well, again - all things are relevant and everything this hole sets between matters.  From what I've seen, the length of this hole is not a huge factor if everything else is right - with no bad apples.

Now comes what I've called "the Face of the Breech Plug", which I'm going to call the Powder Pocket from here on out. 

In my opinion, a breech plug that has a Powder Pocket or one that doesn't have one is a big factor.  The one that HAS a recess to hold powder will always have my vote. 

One of my readers has asked why I haven't mentioned the Omega Breech Plug and so for him, I have now.  It is one of the most trouble-free factory breech plugs available, always has been.  In large part, I believe because of the nice powder pocket design (and it is shorter).

I like this Omega pocket for two reasons.

          1.  the powder seems to be exposed to more fire as the fire exits the Flash Hole
          2.  it moves the powder closer to the primer

This pocket is one factor that allows the Thompson Center Speed Breech XT to out-perform the CVA Quick Release Breech Plug for reliability in ignition.

Whoa there, hold on!  Hear me out and look at the photo of the two side by side.  At first glance, it looks like the CVA breech plug should have less problems than the Thompson Center, I mean, it is a lot shorter.  A closer look shows this:

The difference between the two breech plugs is that the Thompson Center has to deliver it's fire .434 further than the CVA.

So with all that said and keeping in mind that neither have great transition areas, why does a much longer, Thompson Center plug out-perform the much shorter CVA plug?

     1.  The Thompson Center's Fire Channel is a larger diameter

     2.  The Thompson Center plug has a much more defined Powder Pocket.

My vote goes to the Powder Pocket being the most important contributing factor here.

The reason?  I believe the fire is delivered in a much more efficient manner due to the Powder Pocket design.  The CVA plug is obviously designer to shoot pellets and it does a great job with those, if that what you choose to shoot (but we wouldn't be talking about this if it were, now would we).

The new plug that Western Powder has designed has a very deep Powder Pocket.

When I write the article on that plug, I'll tell you more about it (dimensions, etc) but the reason it's so deep was to overcome the added length.  It puts the powder around the same distance from the primer as the old-style , shorter plugs (namely the good ol' Thompson Center Omega plug!).

Just for the heck of it, I've thrown in some photos showing the above powder pockets full of powder:

For those of you not familiar with the CVA Quick Release Breech Plug, the shoulder you see around the top is not a Powder Pocket.  That shoulder is part of the plug design that allows it to  seal the plug to the barrel and keeps fowling from getting into the threads.  For that purpose, it's an excellent design, as you will never find fowling in these threads and can always get the plug out by hand.

In closing this segment, I believe the Powder Pocket is a bigger deal than the diameter or length of a Flash Hole.  Just as long as there's no bad apples in the mix, cause we all know that all it takes is one....

Watch for the last segment in this Breech Plug series: The Primer Pocket coming in a few days. 

Till then, An Apple a Day (cleaning, cleaning and more cleaning) Keeps the Breech Plug Doctor Out of a Job!!!



Quick Release Breech Plugs: the Fire Channel & the Transition Area

Continuing our breech plug discussion, the next topic in this series will be on the Fire Channel and the Transition Area.  Both work together (or should) so I couldn't really talk about one without including the other and really, they should be considered one in the same.

What I mean by "one in the same" is that I believe the Fire Channel should be just that, a channel to carry the fire all the way down the channel and into the Flash Hole.  But as you'll see in this article, on the most part, they are two separate things:  a Fire Channel and a Flash Hole. 

There really is no Transition as I see it, and I hope I can do a good job showing why I say this with my arts & crafts skills....

First, the Fire Channel.

As I talked about in my last post QRBP: the Length, today's breech plugs are longer.  But they all seem to lack having any noticeable Transition Area.  Because of this, there are three areas for us to take note of :  Diameter, Transition Area and the Cleanliness Factor.

Diameter:
The only two diameter's for Fire Channels that I've found on the market are 3mm and 1/8 inch.  Here's pretty much how you can tell (besides measuring) the difference:

American made = 1/8"

Foreign made = 3mm

1/8 inch is larger and delivers hotter and higher quality fire down the Fire Channel to the Flash Hole.  (So in this case, size does matter!)  The extra space has more oxygen and therefore allows the primer to burn better, providing more fire.  This is one of the problems with the CVA Quick Release Breech Plug (QRBP) design, which is of the smaller diameter.

Cleanliness:
The next issue that has become more pronounced with the added length is carbon build-up.  It was always there, just not to the degree we are seeing it now.  There is now a lot more surface area for primer and powder residue to hang it's ugly head.

If the Fire Channel is not properly cleaned after a trip to the range, or if it is an extra-long range session, you can have hang or mis-fires with the new longer plugs. Just a few shots can cause immediate problems with the CVA QRBP.  But be no mistake about it, if you fail to clean this Fire Channel in a timely manor, or if you don't clean it properly, you could experience problems with any powder.

The reason it causes us muzzleloader's such a headache is because it significantly reduces the diameter of the Fire Channel with it's hard, baked-on surface.   As many of you have already been been doing (from what I'm seeing on Facebook and in the forums), guys are using the proper-sized drill bit's to remove this carbon build-up. Not only are they experiencing how  hard the build-up is, they are also seeing how much residue is removed when the breech plug is cleaned out with a drill bit.

In the photos below, provided by Doug Phair, CEO of Western Powders (owners of Blackhorn 209), you can see how restricted that area becomes and just how much build-up gathers in the Fire Channel. 

The photo on the left is a clean breech plug.  On the right is the same breech plug after 10 shots with Triple 7.  (!!!)  Be sure to notice not only how restricted the Fire Channel is, but how "clogged" the Flash Hole is.

Unbelievable!  As it's been said: A picture is worth a thousand words.

With all the best logic applied, the only reason I can see why a rifle can keep firing with this kind of blockage is because the force from the primer is knocking the carbon build-up from the Flash Hole area.  ...not good....

Second, the Transition Area. 

What I call the Transition Area, Blackhorn is calling it the Flash Cone.  In reality, it barely exists in any manufacturer's breech plug!  With my crude, but (I think) effective visual aids below, you can see the area I'm talking about.

I got to give you a little explanation as to how I came up with the NOT TO SCALE angles I'm showing below. 

Originally, I wanted to make a cast of the inside of a Fire Channel to get a better idea of what might be causing the problems inside there.  I just had to find a way.  Well, after the internet search from H-E-double-hockey-sticks (!!!), I found a liquid rubber compound that I thought would work.  It was kinda costly, but as it turned out, very useful to me in finding one of the culprit's causing problems inside the Fire Channel.  Below you can see the castings I made of various breech plugs, and if you look at the angle of the Transition Area leaving the Fire Channel and going into the Flash Hole, you'll see where I got the models for my visual aids below.

The models below show my findings:

First is a fair look at what a CVA Quick Release Breech Plug Transition Area would look like according to my cast.

Next is a Thompson Center Speed Breech XT model according to the cast I made of that breech plug. 

As you can see, the Thompson Center is a little steeper, but not by much. But again, "not much" really matters.

 

The last model shows a much steeper Transition Angle.  As you can see, there IS a cast, so a plug MUST exist....

....and it does. 

  

This is the inside of the breech plug that CEO Doug Phair and his team designed, and will be available sooner than expected!

I just used common sense to draw my simulated "fire" going down the Fire Channels and into the Transition Area, then on into the Flash Hole.  I'm quite certain y'all all get the picture, I sure did once I saw my castings.  

As you can see, most of the fire in the CVA plug is hitting a (pretty much) solid wall.  A little more fire is getting to the Flash Hole in the Thompson Center plug, but not much.  And again, I can't stress how much "not much" matters in this case!

You can see what a difference the new Blackhorn plug will make in fire delivery to the powder, not with just their powder, but with all powders.

Looking at my models, you can tell why just drilling a Flash Hole from .026 +/- to .035 +/- will really only give you an increased "fire stream" going into the Flash Hole of about .009.  In this case, "not much" really doesn't matter much at all. As some of you know, a bigger hole does not always fix the CVA QRBP problem.

In my opinion, this little Transition Area correction alone could fix a lot of our ignition problems, all by itself. 

My pick, until Western Powders new plug is on the market, is still the Thompson Center plug.  The larger diameter Fire Channel and slightly increased Transition Area angle makes it currently the most reliable breech plug on today's market - for all powders. 

And don't forget:  Clean, Clean, CLEAN.  It's a big factor. We have a very effective breech plug cleaning process worked out with some recommend products that we will be telling you about soon.

Next up in this Breech Plug series, I'll be talking about the Flash Hole and the Face Of The Breech Plug ....watch for it in the next few days!


***I want to give Doug Phair a special thanks for allowing MAX to use the before and after photos of the inside of the breech plug.  They have an extensive test lab and I think the photos go a long way in proving just what is going on inside our breech plugs!  I'd also like to commend Western Powder for jumping in to correct a problem that didn't belong to them, or to us muzzleloaders, with the development of the new and improved breech plug they've designed.  I'm hoping to go back to Montana this spring and get a look at some of the other projects they are working on, first hand. 

Six Features of a Breech Plug that affect Ignition & Accuracy

I've had great responses from my last blog post about the ignition problems with the CVA Quick Release Breech Plug (QRBP) while using Blackhorn 209 (BH209) Powder.  Thank you to all of you for your feedback and input. 

I feel bad about not having written something sooner, now that I've heard some of your comments and concerns.  It seems that some of the newer muzzleloading shooters / hunters were having problems with hang-fires and thought it was something they were doing wrong.  Not so.

Over the past few years, the industry decided we needed breech plugs that we can remove with our fingers.  I'm not sure why, removing the dang breech plug with a wrench was never a problem for me, it took a few seconds but I can't ever remember breaking a sweat over having to do it that way.  

So why did we need our breech plug out quicker?  

Is it because they think we love cleaning a dirty breech plug so much that we wanted to hurry up and get it out so we can get started on that chore?  Do they think we just can't wait?  Who has been calling the rifle manufacturers and telling them we wanted to get our breech plugs out faster?  Who told them we wanted a break from having to use a dang socket wrench anyway?  Which one of you was it? 

Whatever the reason, and no matter who ratted us lazy muzzleloaders out to the manufacturers, the new QRBP is here and they are not going away.

The problem is that all of them, no matter the manufacturer, have caused a whole new problem for us to deal with (now that we have gotten rid of that pesky wrench).  The new problem being that we need a much better maintenance program and a much more detailed cleaning regiment...much better, more detailed and more often.

It's not hard cleaning, with the right tools, it's just more cleaning.  This new breed of quickly removed breech plugs have caused more problems than they're really worth if you ask me.  The only thing they're good for is getting us to clean the darn thing 30 seconds sooner than before.  Yeah.  Thanks a lot boys!

As I see it, there are 6 breech plug features that have an effect on ignition and accuracy:

1.  The Primer Pocket
2.  The Fire Channel - that hole between the primer pocket and flash hole.
3.  The Transition Area - the area that connects the fire channel to the flash hole.
4.  The Flash Hole
5.  The Face of the Breech Plug
6.  The length - and this is what has been the driving force in causing us to have to pay more attention to the other five features.

Now that is really a lot of stuff to have to pay attention too!

It's also a lot to write about, especially in one blog post, so this is what I've decided to do.  I'm going to spread it out over my next several posts to keep this one from running too long.

So watch the MAX Blog as I cover each feature individually, starting at the bottom of the list with #6: The Length.  Length is not all bad if a company has done all their homework. 

Till my next article, take a look at the breech plugs below and compare them to yours.

It's the "off season" and a good time to learn more about this topic so you can make an informed decision on how to proceed.

Also, I encourage all of you to visit Blackhorn 209's website and take a look at the work they've done and the information they are sharing concerning ignition guidelines, like how to deal with breech plug problems and how to get them to work correctly and accurately.  Then before you leave their site, join the Blackhorn Team; I don't think you'll be dissapointed.

And while you're surfing the internet, go to CVA's website and look at what they've done to correct or help you with their breech plug ignition problems....oh, what's that you say?  You can't find any link on their page to help with QRBP ignition problems?  Hmmm. 

After checking out each site, decide for yourself which company seems to have your best interest, your accuracy and your shooting & hunting successfulness, at heart.

And just for a little comparison, here is a picture of CVA's QRBP along side the new breech plug designed by Blackhorn.

See the difference?  That's the CVA QRBP on the right, Blackhorn's QRBP on the left.

One more thing - Traditions is a company that very little has been said about in all this.  I, for one, have no experience with their rifles, but I'm ordering a Vortex tomorrow!  I've had my eye on one for quite a while now, it's a  perfect timed to take action on my desires.  And Blackhorn has never mentioned any problems with Traditions breech plugs to me, so maybe it's time for us to have a look at another mid-priced In-line. 

If you are shooting Traditions rifles I'd be very interested in hearing your comments below, what's been your experience?



 

MAX Q & A: the CVA Breech Plug Ignition Problem

MAX Q&A:

your questions from email and facebook

From Facebook:

"I am headed to Alaska in May for Bear with my Accura and have had issues with CCI 209 primers firing and Blackhorn not, so I have read to try CCI 209mag and 50% work. I was hunting 4weeks ago MT late season in 20degree temp I fired first shot with a perfect kill, second missed a neck shot, third primer only went off, fourth I re-packed bullet/powder fired with delay I flinched and hit the deer in the head. All bullets and powder where seated proper can't figure it out. My intended load is a 250gr TMZ w/100vlm of Blackhorn changing to Winchester blue 209's for Alaska. I have checked the breech plug for blockage and cleaned. I know the Blackhorn is not the problem I suspect its the breech. Any suggestion Russell? Thanks Wil"

"Wil: 2 issues, one you can control & the other you can't. The breach plug, depending on how you clean it, can have more blockage than you think that can affect ignition. If you're not using the proper scraping tools (which no one makes) looking though the breach plug can be deceiving. The one you don't have control over is a lot of V2's have problems igniting Blackhorn 209. I do notice that you recognize the problem is not with BH209 as I too believe it is a great product, and it is. Many are experiencing this problem with V2's. I believe it is being addressed but I don't think you'll have a solution before your bear hunt in May. If you want more, email me as the big answer won't really fit here."

I gave Wil the "short answer" quickly on Facebook, but wanted to make sure to share it with you all in a longer version here. We get a lot of questions like this one; it's got a common theme so I'd like to make an additional comment on the subject of the large number of CVA Accura V2 and CVA Apex rifles failing to fire using Blackhorn 209 Powder.

I'm kinda caught in the middle here as I know the CEO's and staff of both companies pretty well. But MAX is based on me telling the truth and being honest with my customers, regardless of what that truth is. So, I've got to warn or caution you all about using Blackhorn in either of these CVA rifles, or in any Encore that is utilizing a Bergara Barrel with the QRBP. There is a pretty good chance that the rifle will not fire or will hang fire with Blackhorn powder. I've studied this problem for the better part of 6 months and I see the problem being with CVA QRBP (Quick Release Breech Plug) and not with Blackhorn 209 Powder. It's a very simple problem to fix. I have seen these breech plugs from the inside, using medical-grade orthopedic scopes and I've seen them cut in half....... The fix is simple.

 I'm quite certain any of you having this problem will be able to shoot Blackhorn with 100% confidence before next season, just be patient. In the meantime, those with any of these CVA products having hang-fire problems, you need to change powders for now. Triple 7 is what I would recommend.

....OK, so continuing with Facebook and the comments there, shortly after posting the "short answer" for Wil (and the day before I was about to post the above blog post), one of our Facebook friends posted his personal answer to the CVA breech plug problem. In his comment, he said that CVA was working with Western Powders (owners of Blackhorn) to come up with a new breech plug that would fix CVA's ignition problem.

"Thats pretty interesting as i heard Western Powders and CVA were working on a new plug design. I wont mention any names but thats very interesting. I've been running a 5/32" flash channel and .035" flash hole on my QRBP for well over 2,000 ...shots with no issues what so ever. CVA as well as everyone else on the market just were not prepared for Blackhorn 209."

Hmmmmm.

I believe that being in this industry to hopefully make a living at it someday holds me to a somewhat higher standard than the average person out there commenting and giving opinions. Meaning, when I say something, it HAS to be right, my business depends on my giving only good, solid information. If I always tell the truth, people can always trust my word. So when I saw the comment above, I spent a few days on the phone, to verify what I thought was correct as opposed to what had been said on Facebook.

To begin with, I want to say that both the Accura V2 and the Apex rifles are very capable and very accurate. But there is a very good chance you will have ignition problems with either rifle using Blackhorn 209 due to the design of their new QRBP (Quick Release Breech Plug). It's a shame that CVA made this kind of advancement with their rifles, only to fall short with a very poor breech plug design.

So, here's the REAL DEAL about what has happened:

Back in the early fall of last year, I flew to Miles City, Montana to the Blackhorn Plant (see my Oct 3, 2010 blog post). The folks there are great and it was a very productive trip.

One of the big topics for the three day trip was the CVA ignition problems that people were experiencing with the new QRBP rifles. Both Blackhorn and MAX were receiving calls & emails regarding the hang-fires. Before I left Montana, all involved had agreed as to what the problem was with the new QRBP and what it would take to fix it. The problem and the fix were fairly simple.

During my last round-table meeting with Western Powder CEO, Doug Phair and his staff, it was decided that the best thing to do was to invite BPI CEO Dudley McGarity or someone from his staff to Blackhorn’s extensive testing facility to address the problem as a group of industry professionals working together for the benefit of all parties, to include their customers.

At this point, Blackhorn had extended invitations to CVA on several occasions to no avail. I assured Blackhorn (and was pretty darn confident) that my relationship with CVA was strong enough to have some influence over making this meeting happen.

After my return home, I started talking with CVA about the possibility of one of their staff (hopefully Mark Hendrix, CVA’s Gun Smith / Gun Shop Manager) going with me to Miles City for a visit.....

Well, I was just lead along for several months and then got a half-hearted commitment for someone to go with me to MT, but just a few weeks before the set travel date, I was basically told that CVA had more important things to do. (???) The kicker here is that I (MAX ) had offered to pay for the entire trip!

Why would MAX do that, you ask? Because MAX, CVA and Blackhorn were all getting hundreds of emails / phone calls about the ignition problem. CVA was blaming all problems on Blackhorn's powder instead of on the new design of their breech plug and MAX had just put out it's new MAXimize Your CVA Accura & Accura V2 which now appeared to have false information concerning Blackhorn or the abilities of the Accura V2. MAX and Blackhorn’s reputations were on the line, and they were apparently the only two that had any concern about trying to address the issue for the customers; they were the only two spending any time or money to try to fix the problem. CVA just left us both hanging.

From early Fall 2010 until the end of the 2010 season, the problem got worse, and here's why: it went from a failure to fire (or hang-fire) on the range to failure to fire on the buck or bull of a lifetime (whether it was someone's first chance at a big game animal or a shot at a true trophy!)!!  I just couldn’t bare that, “accuracy and big game performance” being MAX’s mission!!

I had several meetings / phone calls / emails with CVA, but they just continued to blame Blackhorn; they took no responsibility for the problem at all and seemed uninterested at any attempt to correct it.

OK, so why do I believe it's a design problem? Because with PROPER maintenance, no other muzzleloader manufacturer's rifles are experiencing this problem. No amount of maintenance or cleaning will fix the problems with the CVA QRBP. I don't just believe that, I know it.

During the winter, the CEO of Western Powders, Doug Phair, and his staff designed and built, at their own expense, a new breech plug that will make any CVA rifle as reliable as any other rifle on the market.  At the 2011 Shot Show in Vegas, Doug intended to give this breech plug to CVA. And I don't just mean a single prototype, I mean the drawings, rights, everything! When Doug delivered it to the CVA booth, he was met (again) with the attitude that CVA did not have a problem by their National Sales Manager, Terry Eby.

Sheesh.

I want everyone to know two things:

1. Both MAX and Blackhorn worked harder to correct this problem than the actual owner of the problem.

2.. Blackhorn is a product that has taken muzzleloading to the next level.


The staff at Blackhorn are professionals who have been in the explosive and gun powder business a very long time, since the late 1960's. The company has a state-of-the-art ballistics lab and the education and intelligence to operate it.

If any of you have called CVA with this problem, you were probably told to use IMR White Hots. My stance is: as muzzleloaders, we should be able to use any substitute we want. If CVA knew their rifles couldn't handle Blackhorn, they should have let us know in their advertising, put a disclaimer on the box or something. That would have given us a chance to choose to buy the rifle or not, based on what the rifle was or was not capable of. OR….. did they just not know? Then that would seem to say that they didn't test the new QRBP before putting it on the market....neither alternative being very good business and certainly not fair to their customers.

To our facebook friend: CVA HAS NOT worked with Blackhorn on a new breech plug design….oh…uh…well, a CVA technician did call Blackhorn March 2nd, wanting to work on a new breech plug AFTER this stuff all posted on MAX's facebook page.... coincidence? Who knows. But I can tell you: Blackhorn technicians designed and built a breech plug that fixes the issues, personally delivered it to the head CVA folks, and got their hand bit off.

As far as the comment about the industry not seeing Blackhorn coming…I’m not so sure that's quite accurate either. Blackhorn left no rock un-turned. I've been in their gun-vault (again, see my post on Oct 3, 2010); I've seen the extensive inventory of rifles that the powder was tested in during the pre-market release.

My very next post will show you how to properly maintain and clean a breech plug to insure proper ignition, no matter what powder you use. All of today's new QRBP's are longer and have created a new cleaning / maintenance problem that is EASY to deal with, with the right knowledge and tools. I will also talk about what the design problem is with the CVA plug.

I have to say that it was a relief for the comment to show up on facebook and for all this to get out in the light to you guys. It's been hard information to hold, sticky situations trying to talk CVA into looking at the solution Blackhorn had come up with, wondering when and if CVA was ever going to do anything....well now the cat-is-out-of-the-bag, thanks to the comment from our friend on facebook that got this ball rolling!

As for the MAX load data using Blackhorn: it is great data if your Accura or Apex has no ignition problems (and not all of them do). I own three Accuras and have not had the first problem with any of them, ever. So not all of them have this problem, which is really another issue that CVA needs to look into...

 

Meet MAX's CVA Accura V2 Winner

We wanted to make a quick post to introduce y'all to our MAX winner of the CVA Accura V2.  This is a photo of Greg and his daughter with the rifle and Greg's other CVA Accura. 

He says as soon as the weather clears, they are headed to the range!

Greg told us that when his daughter found out about him winning the rifle, she immediately asked him for his old one!  Not sure how that is going to work out....but we are VERY excited to see that the younger generation is excited about muzzleloading and hunting and shooting! 

Greg also received a prize package including our new MAX Dead On products, an AccuScope and a MAX hat. 

Thanks to everyone who entered the giveaway! 

Within the next few weeks we're going to giveaway a few rifle scope with mounts.  This may sound crazy, but we're also going to give away a few live Maine lobsters - delivered right to your door!  Oh yeah, you heard that right, live lobsters!

So be looking for these and other giveaways in the upcoming year!  Pass our MAX Muzzleloader Blog and MAX Muzzleloader Website along to anyone that muzzleloader hunts or wants to start.  We promise that joining the blog by email (see the box in the sidebar to the right) will not result in harassing, un-wanted emails; we won't sell your information to spammers.  We just hope to pass on useful muzzleloader information to anyone who'd be interested, along with some free hunting stuff!  (everyone loves free stuff!)

We want to give a special thanks to BPI (owners of the CVA brand) CEO Dudley McGarity.  We had intended to buy the rifle for the giveaway.  But when Dudley heard we had a winner, he sent the rifle, at no cost to MAX, directly to Greg.  A big Thank You to all the great folks at CVA, they have been very good to MAX & me.

Muzzleloading Load Data: CVA Accura & Accura V2

The process I use to test a muzzleloader for a possible MAX video is lengthy.   And complete, to say the least.  Accuracy, with a wide selection of quality components, is a must and a really big part of the bottom line.

Everything I do with a rifle is written down and documented on one of our MAX Data Sheets (get one with the button in the right sidebar) so I can review it all at the end of the process.   I also save each and every load as shot on it's own MAX Target (also available on the right sidebar). Then I sum it all up and decide what makes the cut and what won't - what I liked, what I didn't - what worked, what didn't.  (accuracy & big game performance!!)

One of the by-products of the whole testing process is load data, lots and lots of load data.  I can't stop myself, I just keep shooting different combinations to see for myself what works with each rifle (and what doesn't)!  I end up with a lot more loads than we could ever possibly have room to put into my 2-hour videos!!  So the loads that are shown on the video are just a very random selection of what really exists.  I try to show a wide variety of loads to give you a choice of bullets, primers, powders, etc.

For instance, in my last video, MAXimize Your CVA Accura & Accura V2, there were a total of 41 loads developed through the process of testing the rifle, but only 8 ended up on the actual video, everything else is in my Data Book.

Now, the bulk of my data was shot with the CVA Accura before the V2 was even on the market.  But after getting my hands on the new V2, I re-shot (a lot!) most of the loads to verify accuracy and I can tell you that my testing showed me that both of these rifles are very capable of sub 1 inch groups at 100 yards.


(**Note:  Several weeks after my video hit the market, many of you began calling and emailing me because you were experiencing ignition problems with your new Accura V2 when using Blackhorn 209 Powder.  Since I had not had any issues, I went back to the range to see if I could re-create the problem and come up with a resolution for you.  I've got to say that at the time of this post, I've got it figured out and it is not any fault of the Blackhorn Powder.  It is obvious that some V2's, like mine have no problems whatsoever with Blackhorn.  But some of the newer V2's, (as some of you have already experienced), DO have an ignition issue when using Blackhorn 209 Powder.  And might even further down the road with other modern powders.  With that said, make sure you check all Blackhorn loads on the bench to insure your rifle will ignite it-every time.  I want to be clear that I do no believe there is any problem with Blackhorn 209 Powder, it is an excellent product that will be around for a long time.  And I'll assure you, there will be more about how to address this ignition issue with the V-2 later.  I've worked a great deal with this problem and there IS A SOLUTION. I can't publish my results just yet, but watch here for a future blog where I will publish that data. Soon...)

Below are the loads that are in the video, but complete with ALL the ballistic data.  We are in the process of getting a complete Data Booklet published with all the loads developed during the testing process of the CVA Accura.  This booklet will be available very soon; we're working out the printing details, etc.  But you can be sure that it will be in a form that will be user-friendly at the bench!  (Then we'll get Data Booklets published with the data from our other DVD's also!)

For now, here are the loads from the MAXimize Your CVA Accura & Accura V2 DVD:


Barnes Spit-Fire TMZ










Hornady SST-ML

Parker Ballistic Extreme

Parker HydraCon

Powerbelt AeroTip

Powerbelt Platinum

Thompson Center Shockwave

If you'd like a printout of this data, we've posted it on our website at http://www.maxmuzzleloader.com/ (see the links button) or you can open it from right here: MAX's CVA Accura & Accura V2 Load Data.

I hope this helps all of you to get MAXimum performance from your modern muzzleloader!