1. The Primer Pocket
2. The Fire Channel - that hole between the primer pocket and flash hole.
3. The Transition Area - the area that connects the fire channel to the flash hole.
4. The Flash Hole
5. The Face of the Breech Plug
6. QRBP: the Length - and this is what has been the driving force in causing us to have to pay more attention to the other five features.
So one GOOD feature works with the the next and so on and so on, but one bad one in the mix...refer to the bad apple story we've heard all our lives. But the best way I found for me to understand where the problems were was to break it down and look each feature. At the end of the day, everything is relative.
And one bad apple....
Only two things to look at here:
1. Diameter
2. Length
Diameter seems to be a big topic in the industry. You'll find conversations on blogs and forums all over the internet about this small, but pertinent hole.
Most of us want to make it larger, but others are fine with it the way it is. I'm one of those guys. Many have found that making it larger, especially in the case of the CVA Quick Release Breech Plug, does not necessarily fix an ignition problem. So in some cases, bigger is not better.
Flash Holes seem to run from around .026/.028 all the way (with our intervention) to .035. Why then do some work flawlessly at .026 and others fail at .035? For the answer, it's as simple as going back to the bad apple story. One breakdown / flaw in the fire flow from primer to powder and the bad apples wins.
Just what should the diameter be? From what I've seen in testing, smaller is better if it works. Reason being is because in most cases, a larger Flash Hole opens the door for more blow-back (same as blow by, I call it blow back). There are cases where this is not true, but there are a lot of factors that determine how much un-wanted blow-back a larger Flash Hole can cause, or not.
One manufacturer tells me they're worried about increased pressure levels on the frame at the firing pin / breech face on alloy frames from the larger holes. If they're concerned, I am too.
The next factor with the Flash Hole is it's Length.
In my opinion, a breech plug that has a Powder Pocket or one that doesn't have one is a big factor. The one that HAS a recess to hold powder will always have my vote.
I like this Omega pocket for two reasons.
1. the powder seems to be exposed to more fire as the fire exits the Flash Hole
2. it moves the powder closer to the primer
This pocket is one factor that allows the Thompson Center Speed Breech XT to out-perform the CVA Quick Release Breech Plug for reliability in ignition.
Whoa there, hold on! Hear me out and look at the photo of the two side by side. At first glance, it looks like the CVA breech plug should have less problems than the Thompson Center, I mean, it is a lot shorter. A closer look shows this:
The difference between the two breech plugs is that the Thompson Center has to deliver it's fire .434 further than the CVA.
So with all that said and keeping in mind that neither have great transition areas, why does a much longer, Thompson Center plug out-perform the much shorter CVA plug?
1. The Thompson Center's Fire Channel is a larger diameter
2. The Thompson Center plug has a much more defined Powder Pocket.
My vote goes to the Powder Pocket being the most important contributing factor here.
The new plug that Western Powder has designed has a very deep Powder Pocket.
Just for the heck of it, I've thrown in some photos showing the above powder pockets full of powder:
For those of you not familiar with the CVA Quick Release Breech Plug, the shoulder you see around the top is not a Powder Pocket. That shoulder is part of the plug design that allows it to seal the plug to the barrel and keeps fowling from getting into the threads. For that purpose, it's an excellent design, as you will never find fowling in these threads and can always get the plug out by hand.
In closing this segment, I believe the Powder Pocket is a bigger deal than the diameter or length of a Flash Hole. Just as long as there's no bad apples in the mix, cause we all know that all it takes is one....
Watch for the last segment in this Breech Plug series: The Primer Pocket coming in a few days.
Till then, An Apple a Day (cleaning, cleaning and more cleaning) Keeps the Breech Plug Doctor Out of a Job!!!
Thats odd, I spent my money on your video of the Accura and Accura V2 and you never once had any problems with the stock CVA QRBP. Now you say its a bad apple and its made to shoot pellets? If its a bad design then how did you shoot such beautiful groups with it on your video with zero problems. I mean I never even saw you clean the flash channel out with a #32 bit to cut out the carbon build up. All you CVA shooters having problems igniting Blackhorn 209 powder in the stock QRBP, take the gun apart, unscrew the firing pin from the stock and take it out. Remove the factory little rubber o-ring around the firing pin bushing. Pick up a #60 rubber o-ring at the hardware for .29 cents. Replace the factory o-ring with the new one around the firing pin bushing. Re-install the firing pin and notice how it wont screw in flush anymore. This is head space adjustment and forms a tighter fit for your primer and will flow all the fire power from your primer into the flash channel. I have zero hangfires or misfires by doing this. Use a HOT primer like the CCI209M. I've shot 150 loads out of my V2 and have great results and shot a 3/8 of an inch group last week at 100yds (3shots) 110gr BH209. We can thank CVA for the first to make a QRBP and not bash them. Notice how everybody copies now and tries to improve it. Its just like the car industry, if it sells then others copy it and try to make it better.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous –
ReplyDeleteI own one Accura and two Accura V2’s. I have not had a problem with any of my three rifles with hang fires or misfires. As with all my articles, and many other writers on the topic will tell you, not all V2 owners have ever experienced a hang-fire. So the problem is not across the board but does exist in a large amount of the rifles. The data for my Accura & Accura V2 video was completed with my Accura before the V2 even came out. But a large portion of the data was re-shot and verified with my V2 with no hang fires. But there is obviously something going on as too many people are experiencing hang fires.
As I began to get questions and requests for help, it became evident that this was a mass problem, not just isolated incidents, and I began to research and travel to Montana and Georgia to talk to the two companies to figure out what was causing the problem and how to correct it. At that time, Blackhorn was interested in working hard to find a solution and CVA didn’t show any interest in looking into the claims of problems at all. Since then, CVA has openly admitted that there is a problem with their breech plug as it relates to Blackhorn.
I’ve never written anything that denied how accurate the CVA Accura is. They are extremely accurate. As far as the breech plug being made for pellets, you can see by the design that it is and CVA will tell you that they were addressing the pellet market when they designed it.
As far as changing o rings or customers having to drill larger diameter flash holes to be able to ignite Blackhorn 209, my stance on that is that is consumers shouldn’t have to troubleshoot or fix firing failures on their own. Neither one of those solutions came from CVA;, that is not a factory-recommended fix to the problem; and I’m not a proponent of either one.
I got my Accura V2 as soon as could get my hands on one and the only time I have had a hang fire or misfire seen I owned it has been when I did not make sure that the flash hole is clear. It seems to me that every one who has had a problem with the current design of the CVA QRBP is not making sure there flash hole is clean and clear.
ReplyDeleteRussell, I didn't say anything about drilling a larger flash hole. My QRBP is undrilled and just has a new firing pin bushing rubber o-ring (#60) Just spend .29 cents and five minutes and you will have a plug that can shoot BH209 great and will also shoot pellets great too if you're a pellet guy. Its so simple a child could do the work. Its more afforadable then spending $25-$35 on a new plug and waiting 5-7 days for it to show up. In fact, is the BH209 plug even for sale yet. So what do shooters that have problems do now for the time being? Are the new plugs capable of shooting pellets? I dont use pellets so I really dont care but to the guys that like using pellets, can they still ignite pellets with those new plugs and their deep flash hole face? With the stock plug and the new o-ring adjustemnt, you can have the best of both worlds.
ReplyDeleteYou said customers shouldn't have to troubleshoot or fix anything? You made a video on how to make your T/C trigger better that cost $26. This rubber O-ring info is safe and free and anyone can do it!
Anonymous
ReplyDeleteGlad to hear the you’ve not been one of the ones affected by the ignition problems. I’m sure what you’re saying and have done to your rifle has helped you and others.
Your right, we did a video showing how to IMPROVE the trigger in an Encore. That video has now joined the library, available to anyone, of the hundreds of other videos and books on how to do trigger jobs on hundreds of other types of rifles. Some choose to have someone do a trigger job on their rifle and others choose to do it their self. In any case, tens of thousands of trigger jobs are done every year, on all types of rifles. But if anyone chooses to do a trigger job or not on their Encore, when they pull the trigger it came with, it goes bang. I believe there’s a big difference between trouble shooting/fixing and improving something that works no matter if you choose to improve it or not. But your right, it makes the trigger better, but the video does not fix anything.
As far as when the BH209 plug will be available, I believe by late June. It really could and should have been available a long time ago.
But I still say, and will stand by, (as do many others) that none of us should have to spend even the cost of a 2 cent O-ring to get a new rifle to go bang.
i personally have and do recommend CVA break action shooters spend the price for an O ring to adjust the head space. It sure in heck made me want to cry after burning the finish off my Accura and my new Optima. Its the first thing i did when i got my V2 as there was no way in heck i was going to allow my finish to be scolded off by primer blow by.
ReplyDeleteBellm sells Shims for the TC Encore to adjust the head space. Doing this on a CVA is no different.
CVA's QRBP has been an excellent addition to their guns. My Accura V2 shoots great and I have had no problems and I shoot a lot. As with any gun you have to take care of them. Regular cleaning should be done. People find something to complain about on just about anything but that does not mean it is the norm or the fault of the product. Sometimes a little common sense is all that is needed. As far as the comment on using pellets-I have to think that the majority-large majority of shooters use pellets. I use both and have had no issues.
ReplyDeletehi friends
ReplyDeletethanks clear information about breech plug can any body tell what material is used to make breech plug?
Hello Russell this is Ray in Vail AZ. I have both the original Accura and a V2. I bought the V2 because I love my accura and watch it on your DVD.
ReplyDeleteI took 4 or 5 of my friends to the range to watch me test fire the V2. They had already witnessed the accuracy of the Accura. They WERE thinking about buying the V2. Well I just knew the V2 would perform no lees than the Accura. Boy was I mistaken. I had hang fires and miss fires and have yet to get the V2 to perform as I believed it would. Well to say the least BPI/CVA lost 5 customers and one ticked off customer. BPI/CVA needs to make amends for this engineering screw up. I am a engineer and have watched designs go to market without having been fully tested. I have ordered the new plug from CVA and am looking forward to getting the results I should from the V2. The Accura I still believe is the best inline on the market. I will be going on a Elk hunt this fall and this V2 is going with me. Also, what is the proper method to adjust the head space. The 5 guys will change their minds when they see this V2 rock as I know it will. I am still not happy with CVA/BPI for letting us down. They sure didn't do much to support the V2. The CEO needs to do another vido with you and eat some CROW, as you did about the Powder Point bullets. Also what about that new Power Point they have out ?